--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "StarSaels"
wrote:
> ... otherwise, you have to go digging through the Links section, and
> if someone's already over-excited about this, they're going to just
> burst right in and not think to explore that spooky blue section over
> there...


Let's dilute our hobby some more.
Hand outs and spoons please...

Those who are truly dedicated might think about using their time
wisely to create an alphabetized index of the topics contained within
the yahoo_LBNA talk list such as I have seen for many other groups in
my time. It might be a very worthwhile endeavour for those too lazy to
search the scarey blue section that includes using a few bits of grey
matter.


Here's a great example of an indexed listing of a Yahoo talk group
(non-letterboxing related) maintained by a dedicated member (who also
probably got sick of telling the newbies where to search for information).
http://sunnisan.com/ppr/a.html

Since when did letterboxing not involve some searching????

phyto

What a great idea!

StarSaels wrote: I just noticed a curious thing:

On the Home page of this group, there is no mention of the newboxers
Yahoo group. The Home page is the first thing people see upon arriving
here. With the recent influx of new blood, I think it might be wise to
have the very beginning of the Description be something like this:

NEW TO LETTERBOXING??

VISIT http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newboxers/

FIND ANSWERS TO ALL YOUR QUESTIONS!
SHARE YOUR NEWFOUND JOY WITH OTHERS!
LEARN TO BE A RESPONSIBLE LETTERBOXER!

... otherwise, you have to go digging through the Links section, and
if someone's already over-excited about this, they're going to just
burst right in and not think to explore that spooky blue section over
there...

StarSAELS






---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1/min.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Im going to remove myself from this group, as the attitude of some of the
members towards new people seems to be something I dont care to associate
with. There seems to be a feeling amongst some, that people should spend
many hours learning and researching letterboxing. I am the mother of two
boys. One is epileptic. I work as a Registered Veterinary Technician, do
portrait photography, and teach scrapbooking classes, all on the weekends,
just to try to earn a little extra money for the family. I also homeschool
these boys, am Secretary for the Scout Pack and act as taxi driver for the
activities they are involved in. The fact that I might have about 1 hour a
day of down time doesnt seem to matter to those such as phyto. Do I ask
for easy answers. If its truly an important, life-changing or life-saving
item I need information for, Ill search all night long. But this is fun?
Letterboxing is NOT something that will cause the sky to fall. Should
people follow the rules. Certainly, but I witness many people not following
rules everyday. Maybe having all the rules and other need to know
information easily at our fingertips makes life a little easier for those of
us to dont spend our time putting down those who have just discovered
something and are excited about learning as quickly as possible, about it.
I hope you learn what is truly important and put that angry energy into
discovering the cure for cancer or something like that. Happy letterboxing.
Ill tell all the newbies to stay away from this group.

Mary
>
>
>
>
> --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> , "StarSaels"
> wrote:
>> > ... otherwise, you have to go digging through the Links section, and
>> > if someone's already over-excited about this, they're going to just
>> > burst right in and not think to explore that spooky blue section over
>> > there...
>
> Let's dilute our hobby some more.
> Hand outs and spoons please...
>
> Those who are truly dedicated might think about using their time
> wisely to create an alphabetized index of the topics contained within
> the yahoo_LBNA talk list such as I have seen for many other groups in
> my time. It might be a very worthwhile endeavour for those too lazy to
> search the scarey blue section that includes using a few bits of grey
> matter.
>
> Here's a great example of an indexed listing of a Yahoo talk group
> (non-letterboxing related) maintained by a dedicated member (who also
> probably got sick of telling the newbies where to search for information).
> http://sunnisan.com/ppr/a.html
>
> Since when did letterboxing not involve some searching????
>
> phyto
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sheesh! Chill out! Weren't you a newbie once?
This just may be the first 'group maybe even websites for some.
So you've not only helped them with 'boxing but helped them on the
road to computer literacy.

I thought the beauty of this hobby was there was room for all
whether it was stamps, clues, terrain, mileage, age, fitness or
frequency!

Have some decaf and Happy Hunting!
Thattaway

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Phyto" wrote:
>
> --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "StarSaels" steves_1701@
> wrote:
> > ... otherwise, you have to go digging through the Links section, and
> > if someone's already over-excited about this, they're going to just
> > burst right in and not think to explore that spooky blue section
over
> > there...
>
>
> Let's dilute our hobby some more.
> Hand outs and spoons please...
>
> Those who are truly dedicated might think about using their time
> wisely to create an alphabetized index of the topics contained within
> the yahoo_LBNA talk list such as I have seen for many other groups in
> my time. It might be a very worthwhile endeavour for those too lazy to
> search the scarey blue section that includes using a few bits of grey
> matter.
>
>
> Here's a great example of an indexed listing of a Yahoo talk group
> (non-letterboxing related) maintained by a dedicated member (who also
> probably got sick of telling the newbies where to search for
information).
> http://sunnisan.com/ppr/a.html
>
> Since when did letterboxing not involve some searching????
>
> phyto
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I fail to see how providing a link to the New boxers list is spoonfeeding anything. The New Boxers list was created, sadly, because whenever New Boxers used to land on this list and ask questions, they would get flamed mercilessly by a handful of people. I happen to agree that they should research the hobby to really understand what it's about, but sometimes even after research, things are unclear. So there is a need to ask. Mapsurfer created this list for discussion about letterboxing, but often when a newbie asked a legimate question, it was everybody on the dogpile. So Mark Pepe created the New Boxers list to give them a safe have and to give the veterans a break from seeing the same questions, re-posted every couple of months. And now there is very little discussion here at all. Which is a shame. So you don't want a link to New Boxers because that's spoonfeeding, but you don't want the new boxers to ask the same questions over and over here. What exactly DO you want? No
new boxers at all? Well, I wanted to hit the Powerball last night but that ain't happenin' either. So if you don't like the proposed solution to this onging issue, what is yours?

H&H

Phyto wrote:
Let's dilute our hobby some more.
Hand outs and spoons please...




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--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Mary Ramsower wrote:
>> Ill tell all the newbies to stay away from this group.
Not bad advice, this list can eat up and spit out a Newbie before they even knew what hit
them. I wasn't a Newbie when I found the list but I still had my tender feeelings stomped on
a few times. I'm more resilent now but don't post often.

Is Mary gone yet? I imagine not. I feel that anyone who announces they
are leaving, really just wants to make a stink or a point or a stinky
point and are simply being contrary.

If one has only one hour a day of down time, then perhaps a time
consuming hobby like this is not for them, and using that one hour to
type abrasive notes is angry energy that could be focused on achieving
whirled peas.

I agree, letterboxing involves searching. I'm not sick of telling folks
where to find information, because I just don't respond. I empathize,
Phyto, although there is an abundance of spoons, many have resorted to
poking them with forks. Although a helpful suggestion, an alphabetized
index topics wouldn't end the elementary questions either. It's always
easier to ask for the information or stamp or whatever to be handed to
you rather than look it up yourself. "How do you spell
onomatopoeia?" ... "Look it up."

Maybe Mary's angry energy could be focused on her campaign to keep
newbies away, helping to solve the annoyance of the endless
introductory questions, and lackadaisical researchers.

So, Mary, Go for it!

To quote the opening lines found on the home page of this list:

"This is a discussion group for letterboxing enthusiasts in the New
World. The list is intended for sharing of ideas, stories, tips,
news, advice, and clues related to the hobby of letterboxing."

Let's face it, folks. According to those two sentences, newbies
arriving here can rightfully expect to get tips and advice from the
experienced letterboxers.

When I was a newbie, I found out about the New Boxers group because
of a message posted on this group. Why not add the link to the group
home page? If someone is new to boxing as well as to Yahoo groups
like I was they won't know how to find the New Boxers list on their
own. Why would you bother looking for something that you might not
expect to exist?

Or you could just add "Abandon all hope, Newbies who enter here!"
That about covers it as well...

Knit Wit


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, hikers_n_hounds
wrote:
>
> I fail to see how providing a link to the New boxers list is
spoonfeeding anything. The New Boxers list was created, sadly,
because whenever New Boxers used to land on this list and ask
questions, they would get flamed mercilessly by a handful of people.

I'm with Mary on this one. For every nice person on this list, there is at least one pretentious jackass who seems to delight in belittling and verbally abusing people who have the nerve to ask questions. Luckily, my family and I can easily continue letterboxing without belonging to this list.

Mary Ramsower wrote: Im going to remove myself from this group, as the attitude of some of the
members towards new people seems to be something I dont care to associate
with. There seems to be a feeling amongst some, that people should spend
many hours learning and researching letterboxing. I am the mother of two
boys. One is epileptic. I work as a Registered Veterinary Technician, do
portrait photography, and teach scrapbooking classes, all on the weekends,
just to try to earn a little extra money for the family. I also homeschool
these boys, am Secretary for the Scout Pack and act as taxi driver for the
activities they are involved in. The fact that I might have about 1 hour a
day of down time doesnt seem to matter to those such as phyto. Do I ask
for easy answers. If its truly an important, life-changing or life-saving
item I need information for, Ill search all night long. But this is fun?
Letterboxing is NOT something that will cause the sky to fall. Should
people follow the rules. Certainly, but I witness many people not following
rules everyday. Maybe having all the rules and other need to know
information easily at our fingertips makes life a little easier for those of
us to dont spend our time putting down those who have just discovered
something and are excited about learning as quickly as possible, about it.
I hope you learn what is truly important and put that angry energy into
discovering the cure for cancer or something like that. Happy letterboxing.
Ill tell all the newbies to stay away from this group.

Mary
>
>
>
>
> --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> , "StarSaels"
> wrote:
>> > ... otherwise, you have to go digging through the Links section, and
>> > if someone's already over-excited about this, they're going to just
>> > burst right in and not think to explore that spooky blue section over
>> > there...
>
> Let's dilute our hobby some more.
> Hand outs and spoons please...
>
> Those who are truly dedicated might think about using their time
> wisely to create an alphabetized index of the topics contained within
> the yahoo_LBNA talk list such as I have seen for many other groups in
> my time. It might be a very worthwhile endeavour for those too lazy to
> search the scarey blue section that includes using a few bits of grey
> matter.
>
> Here's a great example of an indexed listing of a Yahoo talk group
> (non-letterboxing related) maintained by a dedicated member (who also
> probably got sick of telling the newbies where to search for information).
> http://sunnisan.com/ppr/a.html
>
> Since when did letterboxing not involve some searching????
>
> phyto
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

newboxers' group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newboxers/


Don

I'm a little surprised to see such a narrow-minded post from Phyto
since she's usually pretty level-headed about things, but newbies
can't take the blame for all the problems on this list. Yahoo Groups
doesn't make it easy to search these archives. A lot of people who
begin letterboxing are also newbies to computers and simply don't know
how to find information on the Internet. They need to be educated
about how and where to find information.

A certain degree of blame can also be laid at the foot of those who
run the list. I suggested years ago putting links to splinter groups
such as the newboxer's group or some of the regional talk lists to
help people better direct new letterboxers to areas of their interest,
and the result was a list of links tucked away and hidden in the
'Links' section which is about as useful to a newbie as a poke in the
eye. Look at all the junk over there. Database? That feature is so
poorly designed and lame, there's nothing of real value over there not
to mention the fact that it's been the root cause of more than one
flame war. Why the heck is it still enabled after all this time? When
I created the Pacific Northwest talk list, that was the first thing I
got rid of. Who uses the calendar? Why is that there? I'd have
disabled the Files section too on the PNW board, except it'll disable
the Photos section at the same time which I felt has a real value. The
members section *could* be useful, but there's so many of them now
it's incredibly awkward to use and I feel the list is better off
without it.

Why give people choices they don't need? It confuses them--especially
those who aren't very computer literate in the first place. I hated
these Yahoo Groups from the very first day I ever used them, and I
still hate them. They're poorly designed, can't handle large numbers
of people well, and are very difficult to use.

Then there's all the other crap Yahoo clutters the screen with. Right
now, I see a small box says "Hear how Yahoo! Groups has changed the
lives of others." Really? Who the hell CARES?! I sure don't. Clutter
that distracts new members from the places with real information.
There's another message just under that that says, "Yahoo! 360
degrees: Share your life through photos, blogs, and more." Really? Is
that what we need here? We can't even get rid of those options, though.

It's almost as if they designed these groups to be as difficult to use
as possible--seems kind of unfair to knock someone when they can't
figure out how to use it or pick out the important links from all the
clutter links. It can be quite overwhelming.

Seems to me that there's a lot to be said for putting the important
links up from and center to direct attention to them.

> Since when did letterboxing not involve some searching????

Since when did it require searching just to find an appropriate group
to post to? Back in the day, it didn't.

-- Ryan

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, hikers_n_hounds wrote:
>
>I fail to see how providing a link to the New boxers list is
>spoonfeeding anything. The New Boxers list was created, sadly,
>because whenever New Boxers used to land on this list and ask
>questions, they would get flamed mercilessly by a handful of people.
>I happen to agree that they should research the hobby to really
>understand what it's about, but sometimes even after research, things
>are unclear. So there is a need to ask...

Right on! I'm a newbie to LB, in my own mind, despite being
sort-of-active for over a year, mainly because I don't go out all that
often, and *never* just to go letterboxing. I combine LB with
geocaching, benchmarking, bird-watching and anything else that happens
to look like fun. I belong to the newboxers list, the SoCal list and
this one, and have found lots of good stuff in all of them. There is
no such thing as too much information. IMHO, if a person feels
overloaded by data, it's because that person hasn't developed the
critical skills necessary for culling the useless stuff from the
useful. I see nothing wrong with helping all newbies learn "the way
things are done." If they ask, that means that they at least have the
brains to know that they don't understand. Maybe they *are* lazy, if
the answer is in a FAQ somewhere. I still think it is better to
answer the question, *and* refer them to the info sources, rather than
just push them to the FAQ and hope for the best.

On a semi-related topic, I very much enjoyed the article on LB in the
new (November, 2006) issue of Games Magazine. You and the others
(Cyclonic, Sewsowbizzy, et al) came off very well, I thought. I think
the article was balanced, gave a great sense of what the game is all
about, didn't give away anything that shouldn't be given away, and had
some great photos: nice to have some faces to go along with the names
:-) Give my regards to Dude!

For the life of me, I cannot see why some people object to articles
like this. Sure, some newbies might mess things up. Well, that's
Life. If a person plants a box, they should be willing to maintain
it: fix it, replace it, remove it, as appropriate, if something
happens to it. That's the big difference between geocaching and
letterboxing: TPtB in geocaching are pushy about hiders keeping their
hides in good repair, and archiving them if they can't maintain them:
this is A Good Thing, that pushiness on this issue. I hate seeing a
notice on an LB that it was reported missing two years ago! Why is
this listing still there? Why hasn't the owner checked up on it, or
asked someone local to do so? Why is *this* sort of bad behavior
tolerated, but the occasional newbie who rushes in a bit too quickly
is torn into? At least if the newbie is active, there is a chance of
reaching him or her and correcting them; an absent LB owner who hasn't
checked in in a year might as well be on another planet, for all the
good s/he is doing to the sport. Just my thoughts, of course, but I
definitely fall on the side of those who believe that new boxers are
necessary, that a little positive "advertising" is not a bad thing,
that old listings for LBs that are known to be in trouble/gone should
be removed or be better annotated, and that no one in this hobby knows
everything. Keep up the good work, HH :-)

chaosmanor

You know, I am a newbie, too, and I had no idea there was such a thing as
the Newboxers list. Why in the world would I go digging through the links
to find a better website to post questions to & to learn more about 'boxing?
I thought I had already found the perfect group! I am very grateful to
whoever posted the link to the Newboxer list & the Great Lakes group. Both
of those lists seem much more tolerant of the uninformed.

To those that are disgusted at all of us "noobs", I apologize that we have
wrecked your exclusive hobby.

Subject: [LbNA] Re: Help the Newbies!


I'm a little surprised to see such a narrow-minded post from Phyto
since she's usually pretty level-headed about things, but newbies
can't take the blame for all the problems on this list. Yahoo Groups
doesn't make it easy to search these archives.

An AQ member just posted something of this nature:

"LbNA is where I go for clues; AQ is where I hang out."

I, for one, thought Phyto's quick wit was amusing, but I can see another
side as well. The first introduction I had to newsgroups and yahoo groups
was this list almost 3 years ago. I took the time to read all the
archives from the beginning of time, because, well, I am an overachiever.
I couldn't imagine indexing it, but it's not a bad thought (purely for the
historial value). Ryan has done a superb job of creating the most
user-friendly website for hobbyists. I daresay the features have made
many a user less fearful of technology.

What I love about letterboxing is that we have options. If we stay put
and do not change we will die a miserable death. Celebrate diversity.

speedsquare

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Carleton"
wrote:

> If a person plants a box, they should be willing to maintain
> it: fix it, replace it, remove it, as appropriate, if something
> happens to it. That's the big difference between geocaching and
> letterboxing: TPtB in geocaching are pushy about hiders keeping their
> hides in good repair, and archiving them if they can't maintain them:
> this is A Good Thing, that pushiness on this issue. I hate seeing a
> notice on an LB that it was reported missing two years ago! Why is
> this listing still there? Why hasn't the owner checked up on it, or
> asked someone local to do so? Why is *this* sort of bad behavior
> tolerated, but the occasional newbie who rushes in a bit too quickly
> is torn into? At least if the newbie is active, there is a chance of
> reaching him or her and correcting them; an absent LB owner who hasn't
> checked in in a year might as well be on another planet, for all the
> good s/he is doing to the sport. Just my thoughts, of course, but I
> definitely fall on the side of those who believe that new boxers are
> necessary, that a little positive "advertising" is not a bad thing,
> that old listings for LBs that are known to be in trouble/gone should
> be removed or be better annotated, and that no one in this hobby knows
> everything. Keep up the good work, HH :-)
>
> chaosmanor
>

Exactly how I feel. I too fall on the side of those who feel it's
important to encourage new boxers, promote the game in a positive
manner, and keep a clean database - retire*/adopt boxes of absentee
owners (AQ does this).

*I'm in favor of retiring boxes rather than deleting them. That way
they are still on the site for posterity and for those of us who like
to keep an electronic record of our finds - sometimes it's nice to go
back and re-read the clues and live the experience vicariously.

Lone R

There may have been humor in there, but I don't think it was good-
natured humor. I've been monitoring this messageboard for a while
now, and while I do enjoy some of the personalities here, it seems to
me that there are eight or ten self-appointed leaders who seem to
delight in discouraging others from taking part in this hobby. The
amount of people who have indicated that they don't post for fear of
these few would attest to the intimidation tactics that are being
employed. Bullies.

My thought is that if these people want to keep their hobby private
and exclusive, then why open this group to the public? Or better yet,
why not stalk off into a private den and leave the majority alone?

sounds like you've got your plate full already
perhaps letterboxing isn't for everyone?

TMI TMI

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Mary Ramsower
wrote:
>
> Im going to remove myself from this group, as the attitude of some
of the
> members towards new people seems to be something I dont care to
associate
> with. There seems to be a feeling amongst some, that people should
spend
> many hours learning and researching letterboxing. I am the mother
of two
> boys. One is epileptic. I work as a Registered Veterinary
Technician, do
> portrait photography, and teach scrapbooking classes, all on the
weekends,
> just to try to earn a little extra money for the family. I also
homeschool
> these boys, am Secretary for the Scout Pack and act as taxi driver
for the
> activities they are involved in. The fact that I might have about 1
hour a
> day of down time doesnt seem to matter to those such as phyto. Do
I ask
> for easy answers. If its truly an important, life-changing or
life-saving
> item I need information for, Ill search all night long. But this
is fun?
> Letterboxing is NOT something that will cause the sky to fall. Should
> people follow the rules. Certainly, but I witness many people not
following
> rules everyday. Maybe having all the rules and other need to know
> information easily at our fingertips makes life a little easier for
those of
> us to dont spend our time putting down those who have just discovered
> something and are excited about learning as quickly as possible,
about it.
> I hope you learn what is truly important and put that angry energy into
> discovering the cure for cancer or something like that. Happy
letterboxing.
> Ill tell all the newbies to stay away from this group.
>
> Mary
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com

> > , "StarSaels"
> > wrote:
> >> > ... otherwise, you have to go digging through the Links
section, and
> >> > if someone's already over-excited about this, they're going to just
> >> > burst right in and not think to explore that spooky blue
section over
> >> > there...
> >
> > Let's dilute our hobby some more.
> > Hand outs and spoons please...
> >
> > Those who are truly dedicated might think about using their time
> > wisely to create an alphabetized index of the topics contained within
> > the yahoo_LBNA talk list such as I have seen for many other groups in
> > my time. It might be a very worthwhile endeavour for those too lazy to
> > search the scarey blue section that includes using a few bits of grey
> > matter.
> >
> > Here's a great example of an indexed listing of a Yahoo talk group
> > (non-letterboxing related) maintained by a dedicated member (who also
> > probably got sick of telling the newbies where to search for
information).
> > http://sunnisan.com/ppr/a.html
> >
> > Since when did letterboxing not involve some searching????
> >
> > phyto
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Great Idea! It took me months to find the help links. If it was put on like below it would be quick for someone who doesn't have alot of time to search threw for answeres.but wants to learn/
Greenthumbnh

hikers_n_hounds wrote:
What a great idea!

StarSaels wrote: I just noticed a curious thing:

On the Home page of this group, there is no mention of the newboxers
Yahoo group. The Home page is the first thing people see upon arriving
here. With the recent influx of new blood, I think it might be wise to
have the very beginning of the Description be something like this:

NEW TO LETTERBOXING??

VISIT http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newboxers/

FIND ANSWERS TO ALL YOUR QUESTIONS!
SHARE YOUR NEWFOUND JOY WITH OTHERS!
LEARN TO BE A RESPONSIBLE LETTERBOXER!

... otherwise, you have to go digging through the Links section, and
if someone's already over-excited about this, they're going to just
burst right in and not think to explore that spooky blue section over
there...

StarSAELS


---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1/min.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> sounds like you've got your plate full already
> perhaps letterboxing isn't for everyone?

Not to sound cynical, but you are the one who pulled all of your clues
offline and want to go back to the old paper fashion of distributing
clues. Not that I have a problem with that--to each their own--but it
actually makes you seem like the one letterboxing isn't really for.

"I don't like you guys so I'm taking my marbles elsewhere" kind of
attitude.

I'm just saying.... that's what it sounds like from my little corner
of the world. *shrug*

-- Ryan

Personally I don't see how a person making all of their clues WOM or alternately distributed constitutes an attitude such as you presume. I actually think it is quite creative and clever -- certainly more in the spirit of the game of letterboxing than reducing yourself to the lowest common denominator and spoon-feeding insipid drive-by boxes to the masses.

Just the view from my corner of the world... to each his own.

SpringChick


----- Original Message -----
From: rscarpen
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 9:59 PM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: Help the Newbies!


> sounds like you've got your plate full already
> perhaps letterboxing isn't for everyone?

Not to sound cynical, but you are the one who pulled all of your clues
offline and want to go back to the old paper fashion of distributing
clues. Not that I have a problem with that--to each their own--but it
actually makes you seem like the one letterboxing isn't really for.

"I don't like you guys so I'm taking my marbles elsewhere" kind of
attitude.

I'm just saying.... that's what it sounds like from my little corner
of the world. *shrug*

-- Ryan





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Phyto wrote on 9/20/2006, 9:57 PM:

> Let's dilute our hobby some more.
> Hand outs and spoons please...
>
> Those who are truly dedicated might think about using their time
> wisely to create an alphabetized index of the topics contained within
> the yahoo_LBNA talk list such as I have seen for many other groups in
> my time. It might be a very worthwhile endeavour for those too lazy to
> search the scarey blue section that includes using a few bits of grey
> matter.
>
> Here's a great example of an indexed listing of a Yahoo talk group
> (non-letterboxing related) maintained by a dedicated member (who also
> probably got sick of telling the newbies where to search for
information).
> http://sunnisan.com/ppr/a.html
>
> Since when did letterboxing not involve some searching????
>
> phyto

[stetches neck]

"Oh please letterboxing God(dess), please impart some more of your
wonderful wisdom upon us."

You know, this is why I call some folk elitists. They think they are
better then everyone else. They think they have every right to bully
others around.

As far as I am concerned, people that think like you can go screw off.

StarSaels has a wonderful idea here, and the fact that he/she is willing
to help those who are just getting into the game makes them a far better
person then you can ever hope to be.

Flame on baby, flame on!
--
Nathan Brown

AKA Cyclonic
Penncoasters.com

The insensitivity rolls on...

> Personally I don't see how a person making all of their clues WOM
> or alternately distributed constitutes an attitude such as you
> presume.

Taking *all* of her clues offline suggests she doesn't like the way
the game is played. I don't mind WOM or alternately distributed
clues--I've even toyed around with the idea of a Dartmoor-style
cluebook myself. It really doesn't bother me at all--I'm okay with that.

But I am bothered by the fact it seems hypocritical to complain about
"letterboxing just isn't for you" if they don't like how it is played
when she's a perfect example of not liking how the game is played. I
applaud her for trying to make the game more to her ideal--I much
prefer someone taking action and doing something about a problem than
just complaining about it and doing nothing--but I think it's
disgraceful for her to criticize others for doing the same thing and
telling them to get lost if they don't like how letterboxing is
played. By her own rules, she should have already quit.

Since when did letterboxing become about hiding the rules on how to
play? Why complain that people don't follow rules if you aren't
willing to hand them a rule sheet in the first place? Why the heck
would you NOT want new letterboxers to find their way to the newboxers
list?

> I actually think it is quite creative and clever -- certainly more
> in the spirit of the game of letterboxing than reducing yourself to
> the lowest common denominator and spoon-feeding insipid drive-by
> boxes to the masses.

While I'm no big fan of drive-by boxes myself, who's to say what "the
spirit" of letterboxing should be? On Dartmoor--the birthplace of
letterboxing--you don't even need clues to find boxes. Just start
looking around. You can get buckets full of stamps in the pubs. Is
that the real spirit of letterboxing?

The spirit of the game--I think--is to have fun and enjoy yourself. If
someone can do that by getting large quantities of drive-by
letterboxes, good for them. If someone else gets their kicks from long
hikes or strenuous mental puzzles, good for them. If someone else
prefers "finding" virtual boxes or waiting for them to show up in
their mailbox--good for them. At least they're enjoying themselves.
Why should I care if someone else likes to play the game differently
than I do?

I'm glad Phyto has decided to play the game to her liking--but it's
just wrong to diss someone else because they don't want to play her
version of the game.

-- Ryan

CLAP CLAP CLAP !
WELL SAID RYAN ,I HAVE A FRIEND WHOS 15 YEAR OLD WAS WHEEL CHAIR BOUND AND DRIVE UP BOXES WAS HER FUN!SHE HAS PASSED AND I PLANTED A DRIVE BY IN HER NAME .

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "rscarpen"
> Personally I don't see how a person making all of their clues WOM
> or alternately distributed constitutes an attitude such as you
> presume.

Taking *all* of her clues offline suggests she doesn't like the way
the game is played. I don't mind WOM or alternately distributed
clues--I've even toyed around with the idea of a Dartmoor-style
cluebook myself. It really doesn't bother me at all--I'm okay with that.

But I am bothered by the fact it seems hypocritical to complain about
"letterboxing just isn't for you" if they don't like how it is played
when she's a perfect example of not liking how the game is played. I
applaud her for trying to make the game more to her ideal--I much
prefer someone taking action and doing something about a problem than
just complaining about it and doing nothing--but I think it's
disgraceful for her to criticize others for doing the same thing and
telling them to get lost if they don't like how letterboxing is
played. By her own rules, she should have already quit.

Since when did letterboxing become about hiding the rules on how to
play? Why complain that people don't follow rules if you aren't
willing to hand them a rule sheet in the first place? Why the heck
would you NOT want new letterboxers to find their way to the newboxers
list?

> I actually think it is quite creative and clever -- certainly more
> in the spirit of the game of letterboxing than reducing yourself to
> the lowest common denominator and spoon-feeding insipid drive-by
> boxes to the masses.

While I'm no big fan of drive-by boxes myself, who's to say what "the
spirit" of letterboxing should be? On Dartmoor--the birthplace of
letterboxing--you don't even need clues to find boxes. Just start
looking around. You can get buckets full of stamps in the pubs. Is
that the real spirit of letterboxing?

The spirit of the game--I think--is to have fun and enjoy yourself. If
someone can do that by getting large quantities of drive-by
letterboxes, good for them. If someone else gets their kicks from long
hikes or strenuous mental puzzles, good for them. If someone else
prefers "finding" virtual boxes or waiting for them to show up in
their mailbox--good for them. At least they're enjoying themselves.
Why should I care if someone else likes to play the game differently
than I do?

I'm glad Phyto has decided to play the game to her liking--but it's
just wrong to diss someone else because they don't want to play her
version of the game.

-- Ryan




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

THANK YOU RYAN! All this talk about "spirit" and "tradition" when we don't even play the game in the US that way it is in it's birthplace of Dartmoor. Someone once posted something like "I don't understand why a handful of people insist on bucking tradition and doing things their own way" or something. To which I say "Hooray! Thank you Mapsurfer, and Tom Cooch and Dan Servatius (sp) and Erik and Susan Davis, et all. Thank you so much that when you found out about this hobby, you did not set it up exactly like it was in England. You were independent, creative thinkers who decided not to make everyone scrabble around under rocks and plants for thier first 100 boxes, thank you for setting up the website (hugely controversial with the Brits, who flamed the hell out of our founders over it) thank you, thank you, thank you."

Of course the post wasn't about them, but I had difficulty applying the post to the US and "tradition" when boxing has been around for over 150 years or so in England and 8 or 9 years in the US. And the US version bears little resemblance.

I suggest everyone view the film of the first gathering which is on Mark Pepe's website. If you aren't in it, you are a newbie yourself, not one of the founding members. Listen to their hopes for the future of this hobby in the US. Read the early emails of how much they dreamed of a time when Letterboxing was a vibrant hobby all over the US. Isosceles did a great job a couple of years ago of mapping out the early beginnings of Letterboxing and pulling together the early posts. I contacted him a few months ago and asked him if he would do it again as the links weren't working anymore. I just loved it and found myself more in awe than ever of the handful of founders of this hobby in the US. He said he would when he had a chance. If he starts posting those again I hope everyone will read them. But watch the movie on Pepe's sight, then take a big healthy does of "get over youself" and be grateful the those independant few who said "Let's do it our way". Listen to thier
thoughts on how they wanted the hobby to evolve and think about what you are doing to carry on their hopes and dreams for everyone who came after them.

Is there a saturation point? Probably, who knows, but somehow England has survived and they've been doing it a hell of a lot longer then we have.

H&H


rscarpen wrote:
While I'm no big fan of drive-by boxes myself, who's to say what "the
spirit" of letterboxing should be? On Dartmoor--the birthplace of
letterboxing--you don't even need clues to find boxes. Just start
looking around. You can get buckets full of stamps in the pubs. Is
that the real spirit of letterboxing?




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So basically it is okay for you to criticize Phyto about the way that she has chosen to play the game, but it is not okay for her to voice opinions about the way that others have chosen to play the game.

Okay, I get it.

SpringChick


----- Original Message -----
From: rscarpen
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 12:10 AM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: Help the Newbies!


> Personally I don't see how a person making all of their clues WOM
> or alternately distributed constitutes an attitude such as you
> presume.

Taking *all* of her clues offline suggests she doesn't like the way
the game is played. I don't mind WOM or alternately distributed
clues--I've even toyed around with the idea of a Dartmoor-style
cluebook myself. It really doesn't bother me at all--I'm okay with that.

But I am bothered by the fact it seems hypocritical to complain about
"letterboxing just isn't for you" if they don't like how it is played
when she's a perfect example of not liking how the game is played. I
applaud her for trying to make the game more to her ideal--I much
prefer someone taking action and doing something about a problem than
just complaining about it and doing nothing--but I think it's
disgraceful for her to criticize others for doing the same thing and
telling them to get lost if they don't like how letterboxing is
played. By her own rules, she should have already quit.

Since when did letterboxing become about hiding the rules on how to
play? Why complain that people don't follow rules if you aren't
willing to hand them a rule sheet in the first place? Why the heck
would you NOT want new letterboxers to find their way to the newboxers
list?

> I actually think it is quite creative and clever -- certainly more
> in the spirit of the game of letterboxing than reducing yourself to
> the lowest common denominator and spoon-feeding insipid drive-by
> boxes to the masses.

While I'm no big fan of drive-by boxes myself, who's to say what "the
spirit" of letterboxing should be? On Dartmoor--the birthplace of
letterboxing--you don't even need clues to find boxes. Just start
looking around. You can get buckets full of stamps in the pubs. Is
that the real spirit of letterboxing?

The spirit of the game--I think--is to have fun and enjoy yourself. If
someone can do that by getting large quantities of drive-by
letterboxes, good for them. If someone else gets their kicks from long
hikes or strenuous mental puzzles, good for them. If someone else
prefers "finding" virtual boxes or waiting for them to show up in
their mailbox--good for them. At least they're enjoying themselves.
Why should I care if someone else likes to play the game differently
than I do?

I'm glad Phyto has decided to play the game to her liking--but it's
just wrong to diss someone else because they don't want to play her
version of the game.

-- Ryan





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey guys....

Two quick thoughts ...

I think for sure that the Newbies group link should be right at the top of
the group's main page.
AND I think it should also be popped into the letterboxing.org site, to be
found as easily as the link to this group is found. Really I think people
should be directed there first. Just makes sense.


RIFamily

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.0.375 / Virus Database: 268.12.4/449 - Release Date: 9/15/2006


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OK EVERYBODY STOP. EVERYBODY OUT OF THE SANDBOX AND BREATH.
This is not productive or fun. The world is falling down around us
and we've spent days on this. So much for a little escapism.

I think I sort of got this ball rolling so if I could think of
another controversy to derail this I would. Mmmm, OK, carved stamps
are a waste of time and are taking jobs away from the rubber stamp
industry. (...........c'mon, you know you want to take this bait!)

Thanks for those who defended Newbies and thanks for all the other
brilliant insights of veteran wisdom.

OK, I get it. Keep my mouth shut and enjoy a hunt with my family.

To paraphrase that great philosopher, Mr. William Shatner, "Get a
life" and go find a box!
Thattaway





-- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "SpringChick"
wrote:
>
> So basically it is okay for you to criticize Phyto about the way
that she has chosen to play the game, but it is not okay for her to
voice opinions about the way that others have chosen to play the
game.
>
> Okay, I get it.
>
> SpringChick
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: rscarpen
> To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 12:10 AM
> Subject: [LbNA] Re: Help the Newbies!
>
>
> > Personally I don't see how a person making all of their clues
WOM
> > or alternately distributed constitutes an attitude such as you
> > presume.
>
> Taking *all* of her clues offline suggests she doesn't like the
way
> the game is played. I don't mind WOM or alternately distributed
> clues--I've even toyed around with the idea of a Dartmoor-style
> cluebook myself. It really doesn't bother me at all--I'm okay
with that.
>
> But I am bothered by the fact it seems hypocritical to complain
about
> "letterboxing just isn't for you" if they don't like how it is
played
> when she's a perfect example of not liking how the game is
played. I
> applaud her for trying to make the game more to her ideal--I much
> prefer someone taking action and doing something about a problem
than
> just complaining about it and doing nothing--but I think it's
> disgraceful for her to criticize others for doing the same thing
and
> telling them to get lost if they don't like how letterboxing is
> played. By her own rules, she should have already quit.
>
> Since when did letterboxing become about hiding the rules on how
to
> play? Why complain that people don't follow rules if you aren't
> willing to hand them a rule sheet in the first place? Why the
heck
> would you NOT want new letterboxers to find their way to the
newboxers
> list?
>
> > I actually think it is quite creative and clever -- certainly
more
> > in the spirit of the game of letterboxing than reducing
yourself to
> > the lowest common denominator and spoon-feeding insipid drive-
by
> > boxes to the masses.
>
> While I'm no big fan of drive-by boxes myself, who's to say
what "the
> spirit" of letterboxing should be? On Dartmoor--the birthplace of
> letterboxing--you don't even need clues to find boxes. Just start
> looking around. You can get buckets full of stamps in the pubs.
Is
> that the real spirit of letterboxing?
>
> The spirit of the game--I think--is to have fun and enjoy
yourself. If
> someone can do that by getting large quantities of drive-by
> letterboxes, good for them. If someone else gets their kicks
from long
> hikes or strenuous mental puzzles, good for them. If someone else
> prefers "finding" virtual boxes or waiting for them to show up in
> their mailbox--good for them. At least they're enjoying
themselves.
> Why should I care if someone else likes to play the game
differently
> than I do?
>
> I'm glad Phyto has decided to play the game to her liking--but
it's
> just wrong to diss someone else because they don't want to play
her
> version of the game.
>
> -- Ryan
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Its not ok to judge anyone for there beliefs,The saying different strokes for different folks .After almost a 1000 boxes and 1 year of boxing .I still feel like a newbbie .We do research for the mystery's ,and we file them in with the regular boxes.I prefer a longer hike and a beautiful spot as oppose to a drive by box.Yes i love wonderful carves, but the person who carves that is not a graphic designer is also a wonderful carver ,cause they cared to try .One box took me to a place i grew up in and didn't know it was there .How cool is that !But we all did start as a newbbie . With all the articles on tv,newspapers,and many other places the sport is bound to grow.But the judgment works both ways .The facts are there are wom boxes and reg boxes .I am sure there are plenty for all to find.



-------------- Original message --------------
From: "SpringChick"
So basically it is okay for you to criticize Phyto about the way that she has chosen to play the game, but it is not okay for her to voice opinions about the way that others have chosen to play the game.

Okay, I get it.

SpringChick

----- Original Message -----
From: rscarpen
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 12:10 AM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: Help the Newbies!

> Personally I don't see how a person making all of their clues WOM
> or alternately distributed constitutes an attitude such as you
> presume.

Taking *all* of her clues offline suggests she doesn't like the way
the game is played. I don't mind WOM or alternately distributed
clues--I've even toyed around with the idea of a Dartmoor-style
cluebook myself. It really doesn't bother me at all--I'm okay with that.

But I am bothered by the fact it seems hypocritical to complain about
"letterboxing just isn't for you" if they don't like how it is played
when she's a perfect example of not liking how the game is played. I
applaud her for trying to make the game more to her ideal--I much
prefer someone taking action and doing something about a problem than
just complaining about it and doing nothing--but I think it's
disgraceful for her to criticize others for doing the same thing and
telling them to get lost if they don't like how letterboxing is
played. By her own rules, she should have already quit.

Since when did letterboxing become about hiding the rules on how to
play? Why complain that people don't follow rules if you aren't
willing to hand them a rule sheet in the first place? Why the heck
would you NOT want new letterboxers to find their way to the newboxers
list?

> I actually think it is quite creative and clever -- certainly more
> in the spirit of the game of letterboxing than reducing yourself to
> the lowest common denominator and spoon-feeding insipid drive-by
> boxes to the masses.

While I'm no big fan of drive-by boxes myself, who's to say what "the
spirit" of letterboxing should be? On Dartmoor--the birthplace of
letterboxing--you don't even need clues to find boxes. Just start
looking around. You can get buckets full of stamps in the pubs. Is
that the real spirit of letterboxing?

The spirit of the game--I think--is to have fun and enjoy yourself. If
someone can do that by getting large quantities of drive-by
letterboxes, good for them. If someone else gets their kicks from long
hikes or strenuous mental puzzles, good for them. If someone else
prefers "finding" virtual boxes or waiting for them to show up in
their mailbox--good for them. At least they're enjoying themselves.
Why should I care if someone else likes to play the game differently
than I do?

I'm glad Phyto has decided to play the game to her liking--but it's
just wrong to diss someone else because they don't want to play her
version of the game.

-- Ryan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you check the recently revised Getting Started page on
Letterboxing.org, you'll see a strong push to the
newboxers group.

Choi

On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 08:16:13 -0400
"MARobb" wrote:
> Hey guys....
>
> Two quick thoughts ...
>
> I think for sure that the Newbies group link should be
>right at the top of
> the group's main page.
> AND I think it should also be popped into the
>letterboxing.org site, to be
> found as easily as the link to this group is found.
> Really I think people
> should be directed there first. Just makes sense.
>
>
> RIFamily

"You smell that? Do you smell that? Thats napalm, son!
Nothing else in the world smells like that! I love the
smell of napalm in the morning. You know, this one time,
we bombed this hill, for twelve hours when it was over I
went up there we didnt find one of em, not one stinkin
dink body. But, you know, that smell that gasoline smell
the whole hill it smelled like victory."

On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 08:16:13 -0400
"MARobb" wrote:
> Hey guys....
>
> Two quick thoughts ...
>
> I think for sure that the Newbies group link should be
>right at the top of
> the group's main page.
> AND I think it should also be popped into the
>letterboxing.org site, to be
> found as easily as the link to this group is found.
> Really I think people
> should be directed there first. Just makes sense.
>
>
> RIFamily

Unfortunately, flames are a normal part of list list.
Hopefully, those that don't want to be exposed to them
will ignore this list in favor of the regional and
newboxers lists and not make the assumption that all
letteroboxers like to duke it out. Most don't.

Choi

On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:06:54 -0400
wrote:
> "You smell that? Do you smell that? Thats napalm, son!
> Nothing else in the world smells like that! I love the
> smell of napalm in the morning. You know, this one time,
> we bombed this hill, for twelve hours when it was over
>I
> went up there we didnt find one of em, not one
>stinkin
> dink body. But, you know, that smell that gasoline
>smell
> the whole hill it smelled like victory."

OK, now look--I was out boxing all day, I couldn't get on the computer until the middle of the night (dang kids!) and now I have to go to work. I won't get back until late, & I have a couple things I want to say on this topic. So I reserve the right to post.

Sheba

As a teaser, 2 words: Port Mahon.


thattawayof6sneakers wrote:
OK EVERYBODY STOP.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Exactly!


----- Original Message -----
From: alice.stone@comcast.net
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: [LbNA] Re: Help the Newbies!


Its not ok to judge anyone for there beliefs,The saying different strokes for different folks .After almost a 1000 boxes and 1 year of boxing .I still feel like a newbbie .We do research for the mystery's ,and we file them in with the regular boxes.I prefer a longer hike and a beautiful spot as oppose to a drive by box.Yes i love wonderful carves, but the person who carves that is not a graphic designer is also a wonderful carver ,cause they cared to try .One box took me to a place i grew up in and didn't know it was there .How cool is that !But we all did start as a newbbie . With all the articles on tv,newspapers,and many other places the sport is bound to grow.But the judgment works both ways .The facts are there are wom boxes and reg boxes .I am sure there are plenty for all to find.

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "SpringChick"
So basically it is okay for you to criticize Phyto about the way that she has chosen to play the game, but it is not okay for her to voice opinions about the way that others have chosen to play the game.

Okay, I get it.

SpringChick

----- Original Message -----
From: rscarpen
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 12:10 AM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: Help the Newbies!

> Personally I don't see how a person making all of their clues WOM
> or alternately distributed constitutes an attitude such as you
> presume.

Taking *all* of her clues offline suggests she doesn't like the way
the game is played. I don't mind WOM or alternately distributed
clues--I've even toyed around with the idea of a Dartmoor-style
cluebook myself. It really doesn't bother me at all--I'm okay with that.

But I am bothered by the fact it seems hypocritical to complain about
"letterboxing just isn't for you" if they don't like how it is played
when she's a perfect example of not liking how the game is played. I
applaud her for trying to make the game more to her ideal--I much
prefer someone taking action and doing something about a problem than
just complaining about it and doing nothing--but I think it's
disgraceful for her to criticize others for doing the same thing and
telling them to get lost if they don't like how letterboxing is
played. By her own rules, she should have already quit.

Since when did letterboxing become about hiding the rules on how to
play? Why complain that people don't follow rules if you aren't
willing to hand them a rule sheet in the first place? Why the heck
would you NOT want new letterboxers to find their way to the newboxers
list?

> I actually think it is quite creative and clever -- certainly more
> in the spirit of the game of letterboxing than reducing yourself to
> the lowest common denominator and spoon-feeding insipid drive-by
> boxes to the masses.

While I'm no big fan of drive-by boxes myself, who's to say what "the
spirit" of letterboxing should be? On Dartmoor--the birthplace of
letterboxing--you don't even need clues to find boxes. Just start
looking around. You can get buckets full of stamps in the pubs. Is
that the real spirit of letterboxing?

The spirit of the game--I think--is to have fun and enjoy yourself. If
someone can do that by getting large quantities of drive-by
letterboxes, good for them. If someone else gets their kicks from long
hikes or strenuous mental puzzles, good for them. If someone else
prefers "finding" virtual boxes or waiting for them to show up in
their mailbox--good for them. At least they're enjoying themselves.
Why should I care if someone else likes to play the game differently
than I do?

I'm glad Phyto has decided to play the game to her liking--but it's
just wrong to diss someone else because they don't want to play her
version of the game.

-- Ryan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fall is in the air and the temps have dropped (for today anyway)so I
just stopped by when I heard (on LBMA) there was a flame burning --
thought I'd warm up - but it felt colder than a . . . .

StarSaels had a great suggestion. I hope the LBusa Home screen blurb
gets an injection soon.

Judy B
Fairfax VA
sewsowbizzy

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "StarSaels"
wrote: [portions only]
> On the Home page of this group, there is no mention of the newboxers
> Yahoo group. The Home page is the first thing people see upon
arriving
> here. With the recent influx of new blood, I think it might be wise
to
> have the very beginning of the Description be something like this:
> NEW TO LETTERBOXING??
> VISIT http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newboxers/

I agee with you. Here is my suggestion.
Maybe it could be sent in the welcome e-mail. That would be great.

How about a tutorial site. A Letter boxing Video.

"Letterboxing for Dummies" (How insulting) You just can't make
everyone happy.
Like I said before can't we all just get along.
Rumford Teapot




--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "MARobb" wrote:
>
> Hey guys....
>
> Two quick thoughts ...
>
> I think for sure that the Newbies group link should be right at
the top of
> the group's main page.
> AND I think it should also be popped into the letterboxing.org
site, to be
> found as easily as the link to this group is found. Really I
think people
> should be directed there first. Just makes sense.
>
>
> RIFamily
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.0.375 / Virus Database: 268.12.4/449 - Release Date:
9/15/2006
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I've added "New to letterboxing? Welcome! Please read the
articles in our Getting Started section." There's a
suggestion to join the newboxers list on that page.

The smell of gasoline seems to be drifting off. :o)

Choi

On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:12:59 -0000
"Judy B" wrote:
>Fall is in the air and the temps have dropped (for today
>anyway)so I
> just stopped by when I heard (on LBMA) there was a flame
>burning --
> thought I'd warm up - but it felt colder than a . . . .
>
> StarSaels had a great suggestion. I hope the LBusa Home
>screen blurb
> gets an injection soon.
>
> Judy B
>Fairfax VA
> sewsowbizzy
>
> --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "StarSaels"
>
> wrote: [portions only]
>> On the Home page of this group, there is no mention of
>>the newboxers
>> Yahoo group. The Home page is the first thing people see
>>upon
> arriving
>> here. With the recent influx of new blood, I think it
>>might be wise
> to
>> have the very beginning of the Description be something
>>like this:
>> NEW TO LETTERBOXING??
>> VISIT http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newboxers/
>
>
>
>

How do the moderators feel about adding a
"New to letterboxing? Visit:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newboxers/"
link to the Home page?

I'm assuming the moderators have the authority to make changes to the
letterbox-usa yahoo group's home page.

Also, could the links on the 'Home' page be made live links? Currently
a person would need to cut and paste the URL into the
address field. It would be faster if we could just click on the link.

Lone R

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Judy B" wrote:
>
> Fall is in the air and the temps have dropped (for today anyway)so I
> just stopped by when I heard (on LBMA) there was a flame burning --
> thought I'd warm up - but it felt colder than a . . . .
>
> StarSaels had a great suggestion. I hope the LBusa Home screen blurb
> gets an injection soon.
>
> Judy B
> Fairfax VA
> sewsowbizzy
>
> --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "StarSaels"
> wrote: [portions only]
> > On the Home page of this group, there is no mention of the newboxers
> > Yahoo group. The Home page is the first thing people see upon
> arriving
> > here. With the recent influx of new blood, I think it might be wise
> to
> > have the very beginning of the Description be something like this:
> > NEW TO LETTERBOXING??
> > VISIT http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newboxers/
>

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "ontario_cacher"
wrote:
>
> How do the moderators feel about adding a
> "New to letterboxing? Visit:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newboxers/"
> link to the Home page?
>
> I'm assuming the moderators have the authority to make changes to
the
> letterbox-usa yahoo group's home page.
>
> Also, could the links on the 'Home' page be made live links?
Currently
> a person would need to cut and paste the URL into the
> address field. It would be faster if we could just click on the
link.
>
> Lone R

See the 'Links' listing on the left of the Home page. Under Regional
Talk Lists the Newboxers list is right at the top. I believe with
the addition Choi made to the 'Getting Started" page there is
sufficient notice.
There has been some heated discussion regarding "spoon feeding" of
new folks and I tend to like the idea that new folks get directed to
a new boxers list, BUT newboxers should get the idea that searching
is part of the letterboxing idea. Many times cruising through links
and files, yes and even 'flames' can lead you to a hidden clue to a
letterbox. So if the new folks get all of their questions answered
without a search then they can be missing part of the quest.

Now a bit off subject and not in response to Lone R's post but
surely a part of this or any other list where you have discussions,
can SOME of you have discussions and give and take without calling
names? Once you attack the person rather than the argument it tends
to make your argument look childish and then the flames erupt. If
you have to resort in name calling then maybe you shouldn't hit
the 'send' button, but instead wait a bit. Now I suppose those that
I'm directing this to will immediately think I have just called
them 'childish', well please reread "it tends to make your argument
look childish". That is far different than calling
someone 'childish'.

Don

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "thattawayof6sneakers" wrote:
>
> ... OK, carved stamps are a waste of time and are taking jobs away
> from the rubber stamp industry. (.......c'mon, you know you want to
> take this bait!)

ROFL!! Sounds like someone is in the pocket of a Special Interest ;-)

Hey, as H&H put it (in refering to herself), I'm a life-long newbie
and always will be. Hooray for us noobs who know what we are and
don't let it stand in the way of having fun and moving forward :-)

chaosmanor

"...so do what you do." - Harry Chapin, "On the Road to Kingdom Come"

Randall: "Look, do you want to be leader of this gang?"
Strutter: "No, we agreed: No leader!"
Randall: "Right. So shut up and do as I say."

- Time Bandits

Randall: People who are always right make me sick!
Fidgit: That's why you get along with yourself so well!

- TIme Bandits

> The smell of gasoline seems to be drifting off. :o)
>

I sure hope so, although I'm sure the letterboxing snobs who have their
noses in the air can still smell it.

I'm glad to see that most people are reasonable and realize that
newbies should be given guidance when they ask for it. I am still
fairly new to letterboxing, but I have no objections to giving help
when questions are asked. Hopefully over time I won't become as harsh
and jaded as those few who seem to have issues with newbies.

TG

> So basically it is okay for you to criticize Phyto about the way
> that she has chosen to play the game, but it is not okay for her
> to voice opinions about the way that others have chosen to play
> the game.

Well, no.... I have no problem with the way Phyto plays the game. I
thought I made that clear in my last post, but if it wasn't, I'll
definitely go on record to say that I have absolutely no criticisim
about the way Phyto has chosen to play the game.

I do have a problem with how she treats others, though.

-- Ryan

Don wrote:
< Now a bit off subject and not in response to Lone R's post but
surely a part of this or any other list where you have discussions,
can SOME of you have discussions and give and take without calling
names? Once you attack the person rather than the argument it tends
to make your argument look childish and then the flames erupt. If
you have to resort in name calling then maybe you shouldn't hit
the 'send' button, but instead wait a bit. Now I suppose those that
I'm directing this to will immediately think I have just called
them 'childish', well please reread "it tends to make your argument
look childish". That is far different than calling someone 'childish'.>

I agree with Don. There are no rules in letterboxing, right? Geesh - some people think that means good manners are not necessary either...

Over and out!

donutz716





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Peace be still.....


or shall I say
"whoa Nellie"

too bad knickers get in a twist.

I too consider myself a newbie, mostly becasue we have not spent too
many hours out searching, but did start about two years ago.

There is always something new to learn.

I am so happy to see so many people can enjoy this sport in the way
that fits for them.

I yearn for the day to be able to take one of those long hikes and
find a letterbox in the wilderness!!!
Next task, to conivnce my family, they LOVE the drive bys.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=newbie


#3 is my favorite

#3 is interesting, but the example for #4 is pretty damn funny...

Additionally, I have just added the term "nooblet" to my vocabulary.

Very entertaining, thanks!


On 9/23/06, Rebekah wrote:
>
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=newbie
>
> #3 is my favorite
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

By the time I started boxing, the only SpringChick box in DE was Along the Way in Port Mahon. That's not much of a sample to go by. But having found that box, I know you don't mean to say that drive-by boxes with store-bought stamps are necessarily "insipid."

I have trouble pinning down "the spirit of the game of letterboxing," but for me it has to do with taking someone to a place that's special. For you, that was a deserted road in a tiny town on the Delaware. For the mom with 3 toddlers, it might be the little patch of woods beside the playground. Either way, as the finder I'm going to drive an hour, get out of the car, and find your box in about 5-10 minutes. And depending on who I am, I might get really excited about the birds & the view--or I might get really excited about the playground!

But talking about being creative & clever--wouldn't the best way to encourage new planters to make creative, clever boxes be to show them some creative, clever boxes? Which would involve them getting the clues. Maybe Phyto should send WOM clues to some of her really cool boxes to all the folks on the newboxers list in her area. (Heck, I don't know, maybe she does.)

Personally there were a couple of things that really benefitted me as a planter. The first was getting into PLB's briefly (not anymore cause I'm lousy at getting them in the mail on time)--it let me see a lot of people's different styles & the logs especially tended to be very creative since size & waterproofing wasn't a concern. The other thing that I'd recommend to new planters is a look at Poison Ivy's box rating system
http://poisonivyrules.blogspot.com --both for the comedic value & because it will help you to evaluate what you are placing out there in the wild....

Sheba


-------------------


Personally I don't see how a person making all of their clues WOM or alternately distributed constitutes an attitude such as you presume. I actually think it is quite creative and clever -- certainly more in the spirit of the game of letterboxing than reducing yourself to the lowest common denominator and spoon-feeding insipid drive-by boxes to the masses.

Just the view from my corner of the world... to each his own.

SpringChick





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3 Is my favorite also.. It says it all

Rebekah wrote: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=newbie

#3 is my favorite






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Everyone has their own preferences as to types of boxes they prefer and how they define boxes. And even that is not to say that we have not all gone outside of our *preferred* type of box now and then, both in planting and in seeking. In particular I think that while traveling, we often tend to seek out shorter hikes and drive-by boxes due to time constraints, especially if there are not a lot of boxes in an area.

It is my personal feeling that the ideal letterbox provides something worthwhile, something unique -- other than just another stamp image. This may be challenging clues, an awesome hike, an interesting piece of history, a great location, an extremely creative theme, a skillfully carved stamp or even a creatively crafted logbook. While my personal ideal box would offer many of these, not every box is going to, nor should it have to.

I don't necessarily have a problem with a drive-by box just because it is a drive-by box -- what is the definition of a *drive-by* box anyway? There are certainly a good number of people for whom letterboxing would not be possible were it not for these types of boxes, due to physical limitations, etc. That being said, I would expect to receive something else of value from a drive-by box -- a great location, view, an interesting historical tidbit, fun clues, etc. (and again this is very subjective -- what is of value to one person may not be the same as for the next). I have done many letterboxes that perhaps took only 5-10 minutes once I got out of my car that I would not even necessarily consider *drive-by* letterboxes, particularly if I worked for several weeks on the clues and/or followed driving directions, etc. But these generally all offered something above and beyond.

My comment of *insipid drive-by boxes* was not a reference to all drive-by boxes, rather to those that have been placed simply for the sake of placing a letterbox and offer very little other than a stamp for the logbook. As I said this is all quite subjective, but I think we have all done the letterbox on the edge of the parking lot that had no challenge, no particularly creative theme or box contents, no view, no historical significance.

In regards to the *Along the Way* box in particular... This box was placed while on vacation in a scenic area which was completely devoid of letterboxes at the time. I had no intention of placing a letterbox at that location, rather was just meandering through DE, taking side roads, enjoying the journey, and was so struck by the tranquility of the area that I sat for about 30 minutes to put together a box to share the place with other letterboxers. Judging from the comments in the logbook, the location/box was enjoyed by many people during the time it was in place -- several people commented that even though they lived only a short distance away, they had no idea this place even existed. For anyone to single out that one particular box for the sake of argument is stepping completely outside of context and showing their own unfamiliarity with the letterboxes I haved placed.

To each his own...

SpringChick



----- Original Message -----
From: Suzanne Coe
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: [LbNA] Re: Help the Newbies!


By the time I started boxing, the only SpringChick box in DE was Along the Way in Port Mahon. That's not much of a sample to go by. But having found that box, I know you don't mean to say that drive-by boxes with store-bought stamps are necessarily "insipid."

I have trouble pinning down "the spirit of the game of letterboxing," but for me it has to do with taking someone to a place that's special. For you, that was a deserted road in a tiny town on the Delaware. For the mom with 3 toddlers, it might be the little patch of woods beside the playground. Either way, as the finder I'm going to drive an hour, get out of the car, and find your box in about 5-10 minutes. And depending on who I am, I might get really excited about the birds & the view--or I might get really excited about the playground!

But talking about being creative & clever--wouldn't the best way to encourage new planters to make creative, clever boxes be to show them some creative, clever boxes? Which would involve them getting the clues. Maybe Phyto should send WOM clues to some of her really cool boxes to all the folks on the newboxers list in her area. (Heck, I don't know, maybe she does.)

Personally there were a couple of things that really benefitted me as a planter. The first was getting into PLB's briefly (not anymore cause I'm lousy at getting them in the mail on time)--it let me see a lot of people's different styles & the logs especially tended to be very creative since size & waterproofing wasn't a concern. The other thing that I'd recommend to new planters is a look at Poison Ivy's box rating system
http://poisonivyrules.blogspot.com --both for the comedic value & because it will help you to evaluate what you are placing out there in the wild....

Sheba


-------------------


Personally I don't see how a person making all of their clues WOM or alternately distributed constitutes an attitude such as you presume. I actually think it is quite creative and clever -- certainly more in the spirit of the game of letterboxing than reducing yourself to the lowest common denominator and spoon-feeding insipid drive-by boxes to the masses.

Just the view from my corner of the world... to each his own.

SpringChick

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--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
>Too weird I was just thinking of those same lines.


> "You smell that? Do you smell that? That's napalm, son!
> Nothing else in the world smells like that! I love the
> smell of napalm in the morning. You know, this one time,
> we bombed this hill, for twelve hours when it was over I
> went up there we didn't find one of `em, not one stinkin'
> dink body. But, you know, that smell that gasoline smell
> the whole hill it smelled like victory."
>
> On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 08:16:13 -0400
> "MARobb" wrote:
> > Hey guys....
> >
> > Two quick thoughts ...
> >
> > I think for sure that the Newbies group link should be
> >right at the top of
> > the group's main page.
> > AND I think it should also be popped into the
> >letterboxing.org site, to be
> > found as easily as the link to this group is found.
> > Really I think people
> > should be directed there first. Just makes sense.
> >
> >
> > RIFamily
>

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "rscarpen" wrote:

> The spirit of the game--I think--is to have fun and enjoy yourself.
> If someone can do that by getting large quantities of drive-by
> letterboxes, good for them....

Where's Mark to add the onion comment to this emerging thought? It is
an eloquent example of how the game is currently played. With each new
discovery about letterboxing that emerges, another fold of the "onion"
(if you will) opens up to someone and they find something else that
may catch their interest, whether it turns them onto carving stamps,
or perhaps re-connecting to their local land trust system, or even to
a historical society in their community. There are many facets of this
hobby that truly make letterboxing a gem in my mind.


> I'm glad Phyto has decided to play the game to that liking--but it's
> just wrong to diss someone else because they don't want to play that
> version of the game.

My point is that it offers something for everyone (as this has been
rehashed many times) but that it is often the discovery of the secret
avenues in which you obtain these clues or connections that is often
the most rewarding aspect to letterboxing. Not knowing exactly where
to go, not having the exact location, not knowing every little detail
about a clue. Perhaps it is just "my way" in feeling comfortable with
minimal information and enjoying the thrill of discovery in peeling
back another layer, but it seems to me from the few years that we've
been involved, that both Isosceles and I have met many folks along the
way that also enjoy this element of letterboxing as well, so I do not
believe it is "just my liking".

"Diss"? - not in my dictionary nor my current vocabulary to
DIS-respect someone else, merely pointing out the fact that you don't
have to play it that way, and you can simply ignore what you don't
like. Most often things in an online fashion are misconstrued from
what the author's original intention in the post may have been. That
is truly unfortunate and one of the more complelling reasons (of many)
why I choose to conduct the majority of my letterboxing socializing in
person or offline. It would be unfortunate if someone based an
opinion on another exclusively from a chat list. If I remember
correctly, Ryan authored some excellent descriptions of ways in which
to approach letterboxing (pre-AQ) that really nailed the concept of a
box having an "audience". Perhaps you could extrude those from the
archives.

It's all there, you just have to look.
phyto

Thank you, Don! I think your words need to be reread by everyone
involved in this thread. Can not a discussion be held without
calling people names or getting panties bunched in wads? Are we not
thinking adults?

Newbies, relative newbies, you are just as guilty of this as
silverbacks. When something is said, read it, digest it and see if
there is anything of value to gain from it instead of your first
reaction being to call people snobs, elitists, etc, or to assume it
means that people don't want you playing with their ball.

Everyone starting something new needs to learn about it from someone
else unless they themselves created it. The best at the game learn
from a number of different players with different styles and don't
get their information from one source/person/list only.

Just because someone professes to be educating the masses doesn't
mean they have the "best way" of doing things. Be careful consumers
of information. Much has been lost with some very awesome players
who have gotten tired of such BS and moved on to other hobbies that
cause less grief due to things such as this latest flame and others
like it. Those in the hobby the longest probably rue with me the loss
of the mapsurfers, the legerdemaines, the tomcooches, the davises,
etc.

Every game is played with variations and nuances. Just because
person A tells you something- that high PFX counts are the goal, or
that you do things anyway you please, who cares what others think?--
that doesn't necessarily mean that that is all there is to the game
you are playing.

Perhaps person B, person C, person D and person E will respectively
tell you that writing clever clues, or carving a neat stamp, solving
mysteries or great hikes with great friends are the goals. Who is
wrong?

There is nothing wrong with taking all opinions, sorting them out,
finding the ones that make most sense to you, melding a few together
and playing it the way you'd like to play (within certain limits that
keep the game letterboxing and not something else, like geocaching or
questing, of course).

But above all, if you call people names, you cannot and shouldn't be
taken seriously. Disrespect will get you no where, realizing that
everyone has an opinion and not taking it personally (because,
afterall, it really isn't *all about you, all the time* anyway) will
help you to become the best player you can be.

And if you aren't in something to become the best you can be and
improving things for everyone, old and new, why be involved at all?


Remember, without the other people playing this game you have
nothing to find. We've lost too much already.

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "gwendontoo"
> Now a bit off subject and not in response to Lone R's post but
> surely a part of this or any other list where you have discussions,
> can SOME of you have discussions and give and take without calling
> names? Once you attack the person rather than the argument it tends
> to make your argument look childish and then the flames erupt. If
> you have to resort in name calling then maybe you shouldn't hit
> the 'send' button, but instead wait a bit. Now I suppose those that
> I'm directing this to will immediately think I have just called
> them 'childish', well please reread "it tends to make your argument
> look childish". That is far different than calling
> someone 'childish'.
>
> Don
>

> If I remember correctly, Ryan authored some excellent descriptions of
> ways in which to approach letterboxing (pre-AQ) that really nailed
> the concept of a box having an "audience". Perhaps you could extrude
> those from the archives.

Those are still around.
http://www.geocities.com/rscarpen/Lb/Docs/GreatBoxes/

Happy trails!

-- Ryan